tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8462677.post3849502126888133507..comments2014-09-20T01:26:42.493+01:00Comments on Pawprints In The Sand: Ding!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8462677.post-63468273972488532632009-12-08T14:57:09.113+00:002009-12-08T14:57:09.113+00:00I just wanted to say, great article & thanks ...I just wanted to say, great article & thanks for writing this. I've been debating Borderlands or not for a while and suspected I'd hate it - and you've made sure I didn't waste my money here :)Remyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106116073062568515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8462677.post-60670885753334738072009-11-24T23:54:32.864+00:002009-11-24T23:54:32.864+00:00Ian: I had to go and look your Xenogears reference...Ian: I had to go and look your Xenogears reference up, you know. And even know I'm not sure I understand it.<br /><br />Anyway, interesting point about the 'bragging rights' side of things - levels are quantitative, so they give people an easy reference system by which to compare their achievements to others. Whereas it's hard to brag about an abstract quantity - it's only proved by direct competition with another abstract. <br /><br />That's how life usually works, of course, but hey. I mentioned already that it's human nature to streamline, simplify and generally turn the impossibly complex into an easily-assimilated approximation. It makes it less terrifying.<br /><br />On the RPG aspect, another good point. Level-based mechanics do, in a way, encourage RPGing (in a true 'playing a role' sense of the term) by removing or minimising the effect of personal skill. <br /><br />But without the social mechanisms and fully interactive storylines which are (at the moment) beyond the capabilities of scripted games, I can't see how you can get anywhere near the kind of immersion a GM-run 'proper' RPG brings. Interesting to see what people might come up with in the future, if they can overcome the temptation to just throw levels at the problem. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_%28video_game%29" rel="nofollow">Farenheit</a> had quite good story mechanics, but they got buried beneath a pile of quick-time evil. Would be interesting to see people expand upon that, or similarly innovate.<br /><br />Oh, and I'm with you on the comment box size. But I didn't design the bloody thing, and I'm stuck with it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14334124412964211258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8462677.post-74147588267937289242009-11-23T23:11:07.988+00:002009-11-23T23:11:07.988+00:00Mark: Interesting point about the natural railroad...Mark: Interesting point about the natural railroading, hadn't thought about it like that but does make sense. Still, there are subtler ways - foreshadowing, for example. Skeletons of knights outside the dragon's lair tend to indicate it's not to be messed with. Rewards observance and immersion, for the double-win.<br /><br />And I challenge your challenge - I didn't say that level-based and skill-based gaming are exclusive, just that level-based gaming skews the dynamic heavily in the favour of a time/success correlation (I'm thinking something like Final Fantasy here, where skill is almost non-existent factor in success) it's an inevitability, given sufficient grind). You're right, though - with sufficient tactical depth there's no reason level-based gaming can't be integral to an enjoyable gaming experience - Borderlands itself is a fairly good example, where with sufficient FPS skill you can clear areas of the map far above your level, and still get the pleasure of levelling.<br /><br />But I think the problem is that it's easy, and encourages laziness in the game designers themselves. Why bother building sufficient depth into a game when you can get by with level-based gaming; not only that, but the addictive aspect will keep people coming back (and paying for it, in the case of something like WoW). <br /><br />I know, terrible that the designers wan't to be paid for their efforts. But it seems a shame that that kind of commercial model might be stunting innovation.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14334124412964211258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8462677.post-91097308842356601442009-11-15T19:57:17.121+00:002009-11-15T19:57:17.121+00:00Wow, Blogger's OpenID implementation sucks. I...Wow, Blogger's OpenID implementation sucks. I'm Ian, despite the fact that I'm apparently called "id".<br /><br />Unless Blogger is into subtle Xenogears jokes, in which case I'll take it as a compliment before heading out to blow shit up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8462677.post-80611127381374909552009-11-15T19:54:29.468+00:002009-11-15T19:54:29.468+00:00I think part of the difference may be that of pers...I think part of the difference may be that of personal vs. private achievement. The big draw of Facebook games, for those so inclined, is that they're slightly public. There's that "Hey, look at my farm / Mafia clan / vampire clan / airship" factor, which can still be felt even if none of your friends actually play the same game and thus will never see it. It's still out there, and semi-public. Hence, I guess, the success of grind-avoiding micropayments. If part of the appeal of the game is passive bragging rights, it becomes quite appealing to get ahead without expending any effort.<br /><br />On the other hand, Precinct Assault has no such method for skipping ahead, and I'm guessing doesn't offer much in the way of bragging rights because very few people (myself included) have ever heard of it. The sense of achievement is a different, more personal, but not necessarily a stronger one.<br /><br />I suspect RPGs are always going to suffer from this problem, though if Borderlands is an FPSRPG then it probably suffers less than others. In an FPS like, say, Counterstrike, one can spend an almost unlimited amount of time increasing your personal level of skill. Strategy too, and other genres. But most RPGs aren't like that - after the first few hours of understanding the system, your skill tops out. If you find a boss you can't beat, it's rarely ever something that you're personally not good enough at, it's something your characters aren't good enough at. So go and level some more.<br /><br />Maybe in some cases this is a deliberate decision - you're supposed to be *roleplaying*, so remove things that drag the player's attention back to themselves? I'm guessing not, though, in most games.<br /><br />Either way, the story or the social bragging rights that we get out of an RPG push mental buttons just as much as the personal achievement of beating a skill-based game, so I'm not convinced the latter is necessarily a better thing to aim for than the other two.<br /><br />(Side note, oh ye of complaining about my wiki's text box size, damn is this a small box to type a comment into! =P)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8462677.post-42416027013046645642009-11-15T19:25:50.671+00:002009-11-15T19:25:50.671+00:00Interesting essay. Thankee. :)
Randal has also no...Interesting essay. Thankee. :)<br /><br /><a href="http://xkcd.com/189/" rel="nofollow">Randal</a> has also noticed the similarity between exercise and games. I did much better at the gym (and arguably at life in general) once I started trying to optimise my statsheet a bit more. The popularity and effectiveness of things like WiiFit, or the badge/score behaviour gaming on StackOverflow are also, I think, good examples of whatever psychological principle is at work.<br /><br />Levels/Experience can have other uses - for example, "natural" railroading. If the enemies are 3x your characters level, its a fair bet you've taken a wrong turn and there's plot events, characters etc that can be found elsewhere. Railroady, yes. But I personally appreciate some illusion of freedom, and methods of railroading that don't profoundly ruin immersion - "What? My band of Army-slaying Demon-banishing Fortress-levelling Ubermenches can't open a locked door? What on gods green earth is it made of?"<br /><br />It can also be a cheaper way of increasing difficulty without spending (more) months polishing AI. When the game does have a lot of tactical depth to it, there's something very satisfying about using superior skill to thrash a bossmap where the monsters are on average 150% above the level of your party. In other words, I challenge your notion that Player Skill and Level Based mechanics are mutually exclusive.<br /><br />And to play devils advocate, what's wrong with wanting some mindless escapism with a really simple reward trigger? So what if a game does not require me to spend effort on acquiring new skills or knowledge, training new reflexes etc. So what if it is in fact, just a slightly more engaging (in the case of, say FFX where I enjoyed the plot and beautiful artwork) or social (Having watched Alice play, I think you're being unfair to WoW) <br />way of switching off. To put it more confrontationally, if I wish to spend my finite energy per day on more meaningful activities at work, in personal relationships or hobbies, why can't I choose to fill the remaining hours with Pokemon, FarmVile, WoW, pulp fantasy, bopping along to indie rock or with whatever mindless activity I choose?<br /><br />Incidentally, the techcrunch article seems to be a bit of a non-sequitur. The argument there is against lead-gen scams, and is at best only weakly related to level-based mechanics.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00248770396088030405noreply@blogger.com